Game #3 Bulls at Kings

[KingsOwn19]

Thonton is atleast having a good game.

[nuraman00]

we aren't playing an A game either. Or at least I hope this isn't aren't A game

This isn't the Kings A game. :)

[Eze]

Fredette can put up some points, but he's a freaking anchor on defense. He's causing so much crap for everybody else when he's out of position or getting picked.

[PackfanMatt_12]

Im watching the Baylor game. Very entertaining

[nuraman00]

When will we see the Kings A game? I don't know.

[nuraman00]

Im watching the Baylor game. Very entertaining

Don't quit on the Kings. Watch this shit.

[SactoIV]

jimmerjimmerjimmerjimmerjimmer

[Sir Harry]

Fredette can put up some points, but he's a freaking anchor on defense. He's causing so much crap for everybody else when he's out of position or getting picked.

he doesn't switch when he should and switches when he shouldn't.....over and over

[Eze]

Tyreke Evans is the big play WR who always drops the ball before catching it. lol

[PackfanMatt_12]

does Jimmer not like shooting

[nuraman00]

Lots of 24 second violations these last two games.

[nuraman00]

Evans with a dunk.

[SactoIV]

HEY I'M TYREKE EVANS WATCH HOW LONG I DRIBBLE THE BALL FOR

[nuraman00]

Evans with good defense on Rose.

[Blood Brother]

Down 7. 12 missed FT's really hurt

[nuraman00]

103-96, 1:39 left.

[nuraman00]

Down 7. 12 missed FT's really hurt

I wouldn't be surprised if the Kings average 8 missed FTs a game.

[Eze]

Why do they keep feeding Hickson at the elbow? He looks freaked out there, rightfully so.

Kings should have won this game by 7 or 8 points.

[Sir Harry]

Kings really could have won this game....as poorly as they have played

[PackfanMatt_12]

12 missed FT's. We could just make 5 of those and its a 2 point game

[nuraman00]

Fredette has 14 points. Pretty good.

[Blood Brother]

So who will go 1 on 5 on this possession here? Evans?

[Eze]

lol salmons. so shitty.

[nuraman00]

So who will go 1 on 5 on this possession here? Evans?

No one. Fredette lost the ball, and recovered it, and passed it to Salmons in the corner for three, who missed.

[KingsOwn19]

Well, Boozer's per 36 minute numbers haven't declined.

Brand's per 36 minute scoring numbers have gone from 19 to 15.6.

Brand also had the injury in 2007-2008 which caused him to miss 79 games. He was never the same after that.

Boozer hasn't had a season long type injury. Not the kind of structural injury Brand had.

Brand is also 32. Boozer is 30.

So when you combine the big drop in per-36 minutes in Brand, with his season-long injury in 2007-2008, that's why he's over the hill offensively. He's also two years older.

Boozer hasn't had that kind of injury, and his per-36 minutes are the same.

Brand also didn't have Boozer's quickness, he was more like a Jermaine O'Neal. I mean Brand could use his quickness on defense, but not on offense.

So I've always thought Brand lost it on offense for similar reasons that Jermaine O'Neal did, they didn't have that quickness to begin with, and relied more on strength and smarts. And after a while, it took a toll on their body.

Per X amount of minutes stats only pop up when the play on the court and overall stats don't back up the statements that Boozer has not declined from his Utah days. You don't need to make a case that Brand has declined...i know he has...but you know and i know, and Grant and Jerry were discussing it earlier...Boozer was a disappointment for the Bulls last year..he was not a bust, but they definetely expected more. He missed about a quarter of the season and simply failed to make the same impact with the Bulls as he made with Utah on the offensive end. Grant said earlier that Boozer had to be better for them this year and i agree. We'll see if he is better..my guesss is he won't be and i won't blame Derek Rose.

[Blood Brother]

14 missed FT's. God damn

[PackfanMatt_12]

Honestly Tyreke won't be an All Star when he shoots like that. Bottom Line

[Blood Brother]

Bright side, Kings are 1 game better than the defending champs after 3 games!

[KingsOwn19]

There is a reason Grant and Jerry keep saying "Boozer looks like the Boozer of Utah tonight"...because he has not been the Boozer from Utah in like 2 years.

The Maloofs need to buy the map to the fountain of youth in Sacramento from Michael Finley...if they can afford it. I know Finley is tipping these people off.

[Eze]

Honestly Tyreke won't be an All Star when he shoots like that. Bottom Line

I'm not even sure Tyreke is better than Cousins or Thornton, right now. :(

[KingsOwn19]

CJ Watson, 8 points, 9 assists, 5 rebound, 2 steals

Only in Sacramento

[Eze]

13 assists tonight, 11 assists Tuesday night.

As we all said, too many chiefs, not enough indians. Tons of talented players, but almost none of them understand how to play as a team. It'll come.

[KingsOwn19]

Kings played hard. They just couldnt get out of their own way tonight.

[nuraman00]

Per X amount of minutes stats only pop up when the play on the court and overall stats don't back up the statements that Boozer has not declined from his Utah days. You don't need to make a case that Brand has declined...i know he has...but you know and i know, and Grant and Jerry were discussing it earlier...Boozer was a disappointment for the Bulls last year..he was not a bust, but they definetely expected more. He missed about a quarter of the season and simply failed to make the same impact with the Bulls as he made with Utah on the offensive end. Grant said earlier that Boozer had to be better for them this year and i agree. We'll see if he is better..my guesss is he won't be and i won't blame Derek Rose.

I know it's the common sentiment that Boozer was a disappointment. I just don't agree with it. I didn't agree with it last year.

I thought it was a combination of the offense where Rose primarily looked to drive last year. I thought it was more on Thibbadeau and Rose.

Rose seems to be getting the ball to Rose and Noah more this year. They are running the pick and pop for Boozer's jumper more this year.

I posted this in the playoffs threads last year.

The possessions the Bulls had at the end of games against the Heat last year were horrible. It was as if they didn't even have a system in place IMO.

The per 36 stats were also about how Thibbadeau used his rotation. He played 4 guys primarily in the frontcourt - Noah, Boozer, Kurt Thomas, Taj Gibson. Just more bodies.

In Utah, it was only 3 guys - Okur, Boozer, Millsap.

If the threads were still up from last year's playoffs, you could see at least one other person agreeing with me that Thibbadeau's use of some of those guys, such as Thomas, was to the detriment of the team. Well I actually agreed with him, since he brought up the point. I didn't think Thibbadeau used the best frontcourt rotation last year.

A couple of us just didn't agree with the national media's take on whether he was a disappointment. He played about as well given the opportunities and minutes.

What would you use to gauge whether Boozer is better than last year, in your opinion? What do you want to see?

[nuraman00]

Honestly Tyreke won't be an All Star when he shoots like that. Bottom Line

His closest chance of making it was his rookie year, so far.

[Sir Harry]

Hayes was a mistake....he's not a starter
should have thrown the bank at Sam...

DMC can't hold down the paint by himself

[kingraider412]

Chicago 25-13 assists good shot selection means your winning. Horrible transitiOn D 33-14 Bulls. Once again, no real distributor a total black hole on offense and the defense is a joke. Also, Outlaw is a complete waste of space. I mean, horrible.

[nuraman00]

There is a reason Grant and Jerry keep saying "Boozer looks like the Boozer of Utah tonight"...because he has not been the Boozer from Utah in like 2 years.

The Maloofs need to buy the map to the fountain of youth in Sacramento from Michael Finley...if they can afford it. I know Finley is tipping these people off.

Boozer should have been one of the injury replacements for the ASG in 2010. But Kaman was chosen.

A few days after Kaman's selection was announced, Boozer scored 34 points on 13-17 FG on Kaman.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201002090LAC.html

And yes I watched the game. Kaman was the one guarding Boozer.

[kingraider412]

Eze, you nailed it. Alot of talent, but no focus on what it takes to win as a team. This falls on Westphal, and his leash is very short this year. I expect the Magoofs to see improvement or he's gone.

[Eze]

I thought Hayes was okay.

No ball movement. 11 assists and 13 assists in the past two games. Perimeter defense is the killer - Tyreke's reaching for too many steals and Jimmer is just lost, causing a domino effect on the frontcourt.

Just way too many guys who need the ball in their hands to be effective.

[nuraman00]

Hayes was a mistake....he's not a starter
should have thrown the bank at Sam...

DMC can't hold down the paint by himself


Hmm, I'm not ready to give up on Hayes. He defends the post better than Dalembert.

But, I did really like the way Cousins and Dalembert looked when they started together those last 26 games. The Indiana game, and the Philly road game, were my favorites.

It does suck that Hayes can't make FTs either.

Maybe it will take time for Hayes to mesh with Cousins defensively like it did for Dalembert.

[Sir Harry]

Chicago 25-13 assists good shot selection means your winning. Horrible transitiOn D 33-14 Bulls. Once again, no real distributor a total black hole on offense and the defense is a joke. Also, Outlaw is a complete waste of space. I mean, horrible.

they were all horrible...Outlaw hardly played

[Eze]

lol @ Bill Simmons:


Sacramento needs to change its name this year to the Sacramento Black Holes. Every Kings assist is an accident. Strangely fun to watch.

[nuraman00]

I'm not even sure Tyreke is better than Cousins or Thornton, right now. :(

Thornton makes less bad decisions than Evans.

Evans is better at highlight plays.

It would be nice if both had big games, in the same game.

[nuraman00]

13 assists tonight, 11 assists Tuesday night.

As we all said, too many chiefs, not enough indians. Tons of talented players, but almost none of them understand how to play as a team. It'll come.

I think they need to play off of Cousins more and play inside-out. Right now, they don't know how to create looks. They can't find open spaces for each other.

[Eze]

lol Westphal with shots fired "the guys need to decide if they want to be a good team or a young team"

[Sir Harry]

Hmm, I'm not ready to give up on Hayes. He defends the post better than Dalembert.

But, I did really like the way Cousins and Dalembert looked when they started together those last 26 games. The Indiana game, and the Philly road game, were my favorites.

It does suck that Hayes can't make FTs either.

Maybe it will take time for Hayes to mesh with Cousins defensively like it did for Dalembert.Sam makes free throws and jumpers....he contributes
and blocks a lot of shots
Hayes can't make a layup.....he'd be a good backup for his defense

[nuraman00]

Kings played hard. They just couldnt get out of their own way tonight.

I agree.

[Eze]

I think they need to play off of Cousins more and play inside-out. Right now, they don't know how to create looks. They can't find open spaces for each other.

Hard to disagree. Cousins and Hayes are two of the better passing bigs in the league. They've done little of it through three games.

[nuraman00]

Sam makes free throws and jumpers....he contributes
and blocks a lot of shots
Hayes can't make a layup.....he'd be a good backup for his defense

Dalembert would get the ball in emergency situations, but he could create something out of it.

So far, Hayes has not shown to be a good emergency player.

Maybe it's just a bad week. He is a 50% type player. He couldn't possibly have gotten much better looks in Houston.

[Eze]

lol Westphal essentially walks out of the presser.

[kingraider412]

There are alot of things that need to be cleaned up, but I just don't think it's going to happen in this short season. We have a laundry list of issues and westphal cannot turn this young team around.

[nuraman00]

Hard to disagree. Cousins and Hayes are two of the better passing bigs in the league. They've done little of it through three games.

Yeah, that's one thing I thought I'd see more.

I thought Cousins, Hayes, each had a chance to average 2.0 assists a game.

Right now, Evans, Thornton, and Salmons, when they drive, they're either out of control, or their driving doesn't break down the defense well enough.

Fredette's drives are a little better. But it seem the recipient of his passes can't make catch-and-shoots. Which shouldn't be that much of a surprise. Evans and Salmons aren't the best catch-and-shoot players. I mean can hit some, but that's not their strength.

If we could get an Evans-Fredette pick and roll, with Fredette being the recipient, that could be something. But right now, most attempts to create offense just don't end well, and I don't think one working play is enough to stick with the way the current system is run.

I think they should revamp it and play off of the bigs.

Then, Evans, Thornton, and Salmons can drive or cut off of the bigs.

[Sir Harry]

They are completely regressing from the end of last season

who to blame if not Westphal?

[nuraman00]

lol Westphal with shots fired "the guys need to decide if they want to be a good team or a young team"

With the kind of mistakes they made, it is of a young team.

Not that I accept it. Some of the players shouldn't be making these mistakes anymore.

[Eze]

Tyreke really needs to take the next step. It's his third season, and while last year was injury plagued, it's his time to either step up to the next level or be what he is.

Cousins is going to take another season to hit his stride, two to be a consistent big time player - big guys always take longer to develop so I'm not expecting much more out of him than what he currently is for this season, but Reke is at make it or break it time for me.

Lots of talent, but is it there mentally. Superstars have a unique bball IQ - Evans hasn't shown that yet.

[kingraider412]

Playing hard will get us another lottery pick. Playing smart will at least get us to .500. Westphal was a bargain basement coach and this is what we have to expect. Defensive rotation and ball movement are BB 101. This team is content chucking up shots and being lazy on defense. You are what your record says you are

[nuraman00]

They are completely regressing from the end of last season

who to blame if not Westphal?

Westphal gets some blame, and so do the players.

[KingsOwn19]

I know it's the common sentiment that Boozer was a disappointment. I just don't agree with it. I didn't agree with it last year.

I thought it was a combination of the offense where Rose primarily looked to drive last year. I thought it was more on Thibbadeau and Rose.

Rose seems to be getting the ball to Rose and Noah more this year. They are running the pick and pop for Boozer's jumper more this year.

I posted this in the playoffs threads last year.

The possessions the Bulls head at the end of games against the Heat last year were horrible. It was as if they didn't even have a system in place IMO.

The per 36 stats were also about how Thibbadeau used his rotation. He played 4 guys primarily in the frontcourt - Noah, Boozer, Kurt Thomas, Taj Gibson. Just more bodies.

In Utah, it was only 3 guys - Okur, Boozer, Millsap.

If the threads were still up from last year's playoffs, you could see at least one other person agreeing with me that Thibbadeau's use of some of those guys, such as Thomas, was to the detriment of the team. Well I actually agreed with him, since he brought up the point. I didn't think Thibbadeau used the best frontcourt rotation last year.

A couple of us just didn't agree with the national media's take on whether he was a disappointment. He played about as well given the opportunities and minutes.

What would you use to gauge whether Boozer is better than last year, in your opinion? What do you want to see?

Hard to explain since it's not all about stats rather than seeing what kind of impact he has on his team, it just isnt the same in Chicago...20-10 or 20-9. I'll accept less than doube digit rebounding because he plays with Noah and Deng upfront, but there is plenty of room for him to be every bit the go-to-guy on offense as he was in Utah which he was not last season or even close. If he has not declined from his Utah days than coming close to his 2-3 best seasons in Utah should not be that much of a challenge...but it will be because he's not. The difference is noticable. I saw a bunch of Bulls games last season and sometimes it was as if Boozer was not even on the floor.

[nuraman00]

Blood Brother (http://kingsforum.net/live/member.php?5-Blood-Brother)? PackfanMatt_12 (http://kingsforum.net/live/member.php?7-PackfanMatt_12)? SactoIV (http://kingsforum.net/live/member.php?12-SactoIV)? Your thoughts?

[Eze]

Kings ended last year with a pretty cupcake schedule, so I think it inflated their win total a bit. They were certainly a better team when Thornton came over, no doubt, but as good as the .500 winning % in their last 18, eh.

[Sir Harry]

Playing hard will get us another lottery pick. Playing smart will at least get us to .500. Westphal was a bargain basement coach and this is what we have to expect. Defensive rotation and ball movement are BB 101. This team is content chucking up shots and being lazy on defense. You are what your record says you are

I agree....a good coach puts an end to this crap after 5 minutes

[kingraider412]

Using the young team excuse is ridiculous. Look at what Philly did last year. C'mon this team plays with no direction, out of control at times, and lacks discipline to be playoff caliber. Westphal has to take responsibility.theres no reason we should not at least be .500 with this talent!really!

[nuraman00]

Hard to explain since it's not all about stats rather than seeing what kind of impact he has on his team, it just isnt the same in Chicago...20-10 or 20-9. I'll accept less than doube digit rebounding because he plays with Noah and Deng upfront, but there is plenty of room for him to be every bit the go-to-guy on offense as he was in Utah which he was not last season or even close. If he has not declined from his Utah days than coming close to his 2-3 best seasons in Utah should not be that much of a challenge...but it will be because he's not. The difference is noticable. I saw a bunch of Bulls games last season and sometimes it was as if Boozer was not even on the floor.

Do you think there's room? This Bulls team is a lot more talented offensively than the Jazz teams.

Luol Deng is a good player. A consistent 16-18ppg guy every year. I thought he would score 20 today against the Kings.

Rip Hamilton is also someone that needs the ball.

Compare that with AK and Ronnie Brewer from Utah who didn't look for their offense as much.

What did you think of his impact today?

[nuraman00]

The Jazz were also a mid-tempo team, while the Bulls were 23rd last year in possessions.

[KingsOwn19]

on the Hayes-Dalambert debate.

Dalembert offensively is not much better than Hayes and Hayes is a better defender by a margin in my opinion. Blocks are the most overrated stat there is for a defender. Atleast steals mean that they stole a possession. Blocks can be anything, in modern day NBA it mostly means the guy in the front row got beer on his lap and the opposing team keeps the ball. Dalembert aint stopping or slowing anybody down...Hayes can and already has in the 1st 3 games with Gasol. The problem has been transition defense. Out halfcourt defense has been much improved and Hayes can get credit. People are talking about his offense like they expected him to be better...and Hayes can make a layup. So can DeMarcus Cousins and Tyreke Evans...but we would not know any of that if we only went by tonight.

[Eze]

Boozer, at least to me, reminds me of an empty stat player. The numbers are always there, you just tend to look up at the end of the game and go "holy shit, Boozer had 18 and 9"?

He just doesn't seen to put a stamp on the game.

[bloatedmaniac]

lol @ Bill Simmons:

Thats such an awesomely true quote.

When it comes down to it, yes there is no true #1 player on this team despite talent. There are good players, but expecting so many young players and new players to mesh based on a 2 weeks of games (2 preseason, 3 games and a few practices) is too unrealistic. Look at Dallas, LAL, or the Knicks who have much better players but have lots of issues right now.

Look at the issues the Kings have:
1) No true point. Tyreke makes bad decisions, and thinks drive 95% of the time. Thornton touches the ball and thinks about jacking up the shot. Jimmer has moments where he over thinks a play and gets trapped or the ball knocked away. Thomas is probably the best point, but better at creating for himself and his size does limit play time. This makes it really hard for the Kings to get into a rhythm as the ball can go through anyone at anytime, and you can't trust any one player to set things up on a consistant basis. That leads to too much 1 on 1 plays, and rushed chances.

2) No shot blockers. Hayes is a good man to man defender, and Cousins is improving in that regard. JJ and JT aren't good at anything defensively. The bigs just don't deter any sort of penetration. Hayes IS better than Dal overall defensively, but Dal was a different than Cousins so it made them good complements to each other. Hayes is more of a bench player but this team lacks a true starter at the position.

3) Free Throws. You can't shoot 60% from the line and win much. Its killed the Kings before and killing them now. Tyreke works on three pointers and he can't shoot an uncontested FT. Thats unexcusable. The team needs to stop chocking away free points. They lost by 10 against the Bulls and missed 14 FTs. It always haunts them.

4) Forced second chance opportunities. Its great to see Cousins/Hayes/Thornton come away with a rebound or knock the ball away from the defender. Usually though they get the ball back and force up an ugly looking poop that misses or gets blocked. They need to learn to pull the ball back and reset the offense.

5) Consistancy on defense. Thornton and Tyreke have nice moments where they get a big steal, but yet they get beat by their man, lose track of them, or get beat down the floor far too much. Just like at the free throw line, you can't just give away points because you are lazy as crap. Against the Bulls there was waaaay too much of this.

[nuraman00]

Kings ended last year with a pretty cupcake schedule, so I think it inflated their win total a bit. They were certainly a better team when Thornton came over, no doubt, but as good as the .500 winning % in their last 18, eh.

They seem to start off the game defending the paint ok. But after the other team goes on a run, they aren't able to defend anymore.

It's also disappointing that the offense looks worse than the end of last season. Even if it was against an easier schedule, it should at least look better, right?

Also, I don't really blame Salmons, because the whole team is looking bad. But Garcia was in the lineup at the end of last year.

I have admit though, that even in the Indiana game, which I liked, Garcia was playing horrible defensively against Granger. He just kept fouling him. One of the few games I remember where Garcia didn't play good defense.

[KingsOwn19]

Do you think there's room? This Bulls team is a lot more talented offensively than the Jazz teams.

Luol Deng is a good player. A consistent 16-18ppg guy every year. I thought he would score 20 today against the Kings.

Rip Hamilton is also someone that needs the ball.

Compare that with AK and Ronnie Brewer from Utah who didn't look for their offense as much.

What did you think of his impact today?

I thought Boozer was excellent tonight. He played big minutes, was great on the boards, and was agressive on offense. I didnt see too much of that in the Bulls games(in which Boozer played) last season. Though he didnt get to the line at all tonight. I know he was never Malone but 0 FTA

[kingraider412]

The offense is not to disimilar to street ball, come to think Of it, the D as well. As fast break opportunities are abundant by all the shots sac keeps throwing up without any set offense.

[Sir Harry]

on the Hayes-Dalambert debate.

Dalembert offensively is not much better than Hayes and Hayes is a better defender by a margin in my opinion. Blocks are the most overrated stat there is for a defender. Atleast steals mean that they stole a possession. Blocks can be anything, in modern day NBA it mostly means the guy in the front row got beer on his lap and the opposing team keeps the ball. Dalembert aint stopping or slowing anybody down...Hayes can and already has in the 1st 3 games with Gasol. The problem has been transition defense. Out halfcourt defense has been much improved and Hayes can get credit. People are talking about his offense like they expected him to be better...and Hayes can make a layup. So can DeMarcus Cousins and Tyreke Evans...but we would not know any of that if we only went by tonight.

I would strongly disagree.....Hayes has zero offense....none
can't make a layup, can't make a free throw

[Eze]

I think Garcia seems to be a better team defender than an individual defender. He's solid at rotating and doesn't get lost on possessions. Salmons is a bit better at being an individual defender, though, he struggles with particular skill sets.

[Sir Harry]

if only Salmons had a conscience

[Eze]

I think I'm going to start a tally of how many times Thornton/Evans are on a break and don't pass to Fredette. lol

We're already at like 7 through 3 games. :|

[Sir Harry]

Someone else make the next game thread please....I ain't doin so good

[kingraider412]

I have to agree at this point, and it's early. A complete regression frOm last year and we have mOre talent,'so the majority of blame has to fall on Westphal.

[nuraman00]

on the Hayes-Dalambert debate.

Dalembert offensively is not much better than Hayes and Hayes is a better defender by a margin in my opinion. Blocks are the most overrated stat there is for a defender. Atleast steals mean that they stole a possession. Blocks can be anything, in modern day NBA it mostly means the guy in the front row got beer on his lap and the opposing team keeps the ball. Dalembert aint stopping or slowing anybody down...Hayes can and already has in the 1st 3 games with Gasol. The problem has been transition defense. Out halfcourt defense has been much improved and Hayes can get credit. People are talking about his offense like they expected him to be better...and Hayes can make a layup. So can DeMarcus Cousins and Tyreke Evans...but we would not know any of that if we only went by tonight.

I agree with your post on blocks.

I did think Dalembert slowed other teams down though.

The halfcourt defense did look this good though last year when Dalembert and Cousins started. That's how they beat Philly and Indiana. And Utah to an extent. The Houston game was just bad shooting by Houston IMO.

I'm just saying the halfcourt defense the last few months of last year looked as good as it's looked at times this year. Not saying Hayes isn't helping this year, but that Dalembert and Cousins starting over the last 26 games helped last year too.

Agree the transition defense is a big problem. But it was actually worse a year ago. A year ago, in the Houston road game, there would be 3 on 0 and 4 on 0 fastbreaks. Now, a few defenders are back in time, it's just not enough. Right now, two defenders are back. Whereas the Kings need 3-4 definers back.

About Hayes though, Gasol was one game. What about Aldridge and today?

The priorities should probably be this:

1A: Change the offense to go inside-out, instead of outside-in. Since the guards aren't creating good looks.
1B: Fix transition defense.

If those two are fixed, then people probably won't be talking about Hayes missed layups and FTs.

He is a better defender than Dalembert, we just have to play more games.

[nuraman00]

I think Garcia seems to be a better team defender than an individual defender. He's solid at rotating and doesn't get lost on possessions. Salmons is a bit better at being an individual defender, though, he struggles with particular skill sets.

That's fair.

Right now I think we need better team defense. Then when there's a tough matchup, we'll need better individual defense. Lol.

[Eze]

Noknees Blair went for 22 and 12 tonight versus Dally and Jordan Hill. Yet, the Rockets destroyed the Spurs. Go figure.

[Eze]

That's fair.

Right now I think we need better team defense. Then when there's a tough matchup, we'll need better individual defense. Lol.

Gonna be a while, I'm afraid :( Evans and Thornton gamble too much. Jimmer needs time - lots of it, and about three more inches and 20 pounds. lol

[nuraman00]

I think I'm going to start a tally of how many times Thornton/Evans are on a break and don't pass to Fredette. lol

We're already at like 7 through 3 games. :|

The Kings don't get that many fast break opportunities with Fredette in the game IMO.

[kingraider412]

The Kings badly need a pg who want to distribute first. Our entire backcourt just wants to play one on one all night and hope the shots fall. If Reke continues to play like this I would not be surprised to see him get moved by the dEadline. I only see Reke being a complimentary player,'and not an Allstar, I know it's just 3 games, but that's a good enough sample size to see he's regressed.

[nuraman00]

Gonna be a while, I'm afraid :( Evans and Thornton gamble too much. Jimmer needs time - lots of it, and about three more inches and 20 pounds. lol

He does try on defense, so that's the first step. He's not just a Damon Jones type player.

[Blood Brother]

Tyreke really needs to take the next step. It's his third season, and while last year was injury plagued, it's his time to either step up to the next level or be what he is.

Cousins is going to take another season to hit his stride, two to be a consistent big time player - big guys always take longer to develop so I'm not expecting much more out of him than what he currently is for this season, but Reke is at make it or break it time for me.

Lots of talent, but is it there mentally. Superstars have a unique bball IQ - Evans hasn't shown that yet.

This is what concerns me about Reke. Seems his Bball IQ is the same as it was his rookie season


I agree....a good coach puts an end to this crap after 5 minutes

And this is the main problem IMO. I'm just not buying into Westphal being the coach for a young team like this

[Sir Harry]

Jimmer Fredette is going to be really good in a few years...but you can't just immediately throw him into the fray and expect anything more than we are getting.
He should be playing 10 minutes max right now

him, Thornton and Evans are the transition problem
bench em till they figure it out

[nuraman00]

if only Salmons had a conscience

Salmons took 10 shots today, that's not too many. And several of them this season seem to be on passes from other teammates, when he's open.

[Eze]

He does try on defense, so that's the first step. He's not just a Damon Jones type player.

Oh I agree. He gives an effort. He's just completely overmatched right now. Totally lost.

[Eze]

And the Knicks just got rocked by the Lakers and are now 1-2.

Kings match up much better with them than the Bulls.

[Blood Brother]

Knicks have absolutely zero bench

[Sir Harry]

Salmons took 10 shots today, that's not too many. And several of them this season seem to be on passes from other teammates, when he's open.

he didn't have that many ops
what I see from John so far is him shooting at every touch.....I'd rather see Jimmer brick a three than Salmons

[Eze]

There isn't a SF on this roster that hasn't met a shot they didn't fall in love with. Outlaw, Salmons, Garcia, Donte - they get the ball, they shoot.

Honeycutt doesn't count since he should be in Reno. But, why use the NBDL for a player that wont see floor time :|

[Eze]

Westphal said teammates blame each other."It's pathetic the way we got back on defense. If we just do that & make our free throws, we win."

Wonder who he's talking about. I've seen Thornton, Fredette and Evans all bitching.

[Sir Harry]

mostly Thornton, I think
he was throwing his arms in the air a bunch

[Eze]

"Guys in our locker room need to decide to go together into this incredibly difficult season that lies ahead, " Westphal said.

Sounds pretty divided.

[Eze]

mostly Thornton, I think
he was throwing his arms in the air a bunch

He seemed disgusted nobody else was running back at full speed. For all of his brain farts, I'll give him credit for running back hard. Evans lollipoped his way all night (and all season).

[Eze]

"We have guys crashing the boards & they have no business doing it. Not rotating back. Going for steals in the back court," Westphal said

*cough*Evans*cough*Thornton*cough*

[Eze]

After the game Evans said Chuck Hayes was the only person consistently talking on defense.

lol, these guys are unraveling at the seams right now.

[nuraman00]

he didn't have that many ops
what I see from John so far is him shooting at every touch.....I'd rather see Jimmer brick a three than Salmons

Yes he's shooting most of the time he's getting it. I just think 1/2 of his shots are when there's 10 seconds or left, and he's open. He has to shoot in those situations.

And Fredette is the one that's driving and passing him the ball.

Maybe if Salmons got the ball earlier in the clock, he'd pass it more. He does average 2.5 assists for his career, so he can do it.

I'm not suggesting that Salmons get the ball more though, my idea was to change the offense. I'm just looking at when Salmons is getting the ball, and most of the time he's either getting the ball under the basket for layups, or on passes when he's open. And they're usually later in the shot clock.

If Fredette is going to shoot more, then he has to get the ball later in the shot clock instead.

[nuraman00]

Sounds pretty divided.

They could get over it though. These things happen when you lose.

I'm not saying they will for sure, but stuff like this always creeps up when you're losing.

[Sir Harry]

He seemed disgusted nobody else was running back at full speed. For all of his brain farts, I'll give him credit for running back hard. Evans lollipoped his way all night (and all season).

with all the post routes run with no deep coverage.....ain't no King can talk IMO

[nuraman00]

mostly Thornton, I think
he was throwing his arms in the air a bunch

Do you mean mostly Thornton was getting back on defense? Or wasn't?

[Eze]

Fredette, IMO, needs to be on the floor at one of two times...

a) to spread the floor in particular situations and b) as a backup who will be the second units big scorer

The guy can score, there's no doubt, so give him that chance. Being on the floor with Salmons, Thornton, Cousins and Evans - it's just too much. There aren't enough balls. Give him the ball with Thompson/Hickson/Outlaw on the court.

He wont look so bad on defense either playing backups.

[Eze]

with all the post routes run with no deep coverage.....ain't no King can talk IMO

Totally agree. Though, I was getting a bit annoyed at the lack of hustle by a handful of them.

[SactoIV]

1. The iso offense needs to stop. Immediately. I don't care if it means sitting Salmons an entire game to get the message across, just do it. If you're going to drive, you need to be ready to kick out as soon as a better opportunity presents itself.

2. The transition defense tonight was pathetic. I mean, pathetic.

[Eze]

1. The iso offense needs to stop. Immediately. I don't care if it means sitting Salmons an entire game to get the message across, just do it. If you're going to drive, you need to be ready to kick out as soon as a better opportunity presents itself.

1-4 flat!!!!!1!!1!!1!!11!!!!!1 lol

[Sir Harry]

Do you mean mostly Thornton was getting back on defense? Or wasn't?

mostly Thornton was acting disgusted by his team mates not getting back...even though he wasn't either

[nuraman00]

Even if the Kings are losing games, I think he needs to be on the court because:

A. He's trying to play defense, which is a good first step.

B. He needs the playing time to learn.

Also, this team wasn't supposed to contend for a spot, so try and use a few games to get him playing time and experience.

[nuraman00]

1-4 flat!!!!!1!!1!!1!!11!!!!!1 lol

They've been doing it more from the wings this year, rather than from the top of the key.

Not that it's helped.

[nuraman00]

...

[Sir Harry]

WTF

[Eze]

I think Nuraman just got the Kings 14th assist tonight. A self-assist.

John Salmons is jealous and wants that stat.

[nuraman00]

WTF

What?

[nuraman00]

mostly Thornton was acting disgusted by his team mates not getting back...even though he wasn't either

Oh, I see what happened.

I meant "Thanks" to this post. LOL.

[Sir Harry]

WTF

much appreciated

[Eze]

lol, what would Kobe Bryant be doing after a loss like this? Shooting in the gym.

What would a variety of King players be doing? Tweeting random shit. :| lol

[Sir Harry]

Donte don't seem too broken up over it

[nuraman00]

lol, what would Kobe Bryant be doing after a loss like this? Shooting in the gym.

What would a variety of King players be doing? Tweeting random shit. :| lol

Aminu tweeted how excited he was to play some video game last year, after a big Clippers loss.

[Eze]

Aminu tweeted how excited he was to play some video game last year, after a big Clippers loss.

Whiteside tweeted about watching re-runs of Martin while the Kings were playing the Texas two-step last year. Was sad. Rather watch Martin than his team and teammates.

And he wonders why he can't see the light of day.

[nuraman00]

Whiteside tweeted about watching re-runs of Martin while the Kings were playing the Texas two-step last year. Was sad. Rather watch Martin than his team and teammates.

And he wonders why he can't see the light of day.

I'm not surprised at some of these younger players. They either don't care about winning, or they feel like they have their whole careers to be on a winning team.

Unfortunately, a lot of them either get injured, or just don't cut it. If you look at any draft class 6 years later, about 1/2 of the players are out of the league.

I think Aminu will be one of those. A small forward that can't shoot doesn't cut it.

Whiteside will probably bounce around a little longer, because he's a big.

[nuraman00]

Anyways, Westphal has to figure out how to get the Big 3 of Evans, Thornton, and Cousins to play off of each other.

It should be similar to Boston or San Antonio's big 3. They should just run a similar system. If he knows how to implement it.

They probably won't be as efficient, but it's a step up from what's happening now.

If Evans were able to create offense like he could his rookie year (which was decent for a rookie), then I wouldn't want to change things. But so far, the only offense they get is either from the foul line, or on fast breaks.

At the end of last year, the halfcourt offense looked a lot better, but they're not able to reproduce that anymore.

[Eze]

The really sad part is there are guys who really do try, like Thabeet, but just don't have the ability (they remind me of the college football players who excelled but can't at the NFL level) but you have guys like Whiteside who could make a career out of being nothing but an athletic shot blocker, a Keon Clark, and who had a a very easy road to do it on one of the worst teams in the league with big man issues and he.....seems like whatever.

[Eze]

Evans has to step up. If he doesn't, Kings have to go another route, most likely Thornton, which will make Evans look even worse than he already does since he's essentially average at best without the ball.

When he's on, Kings are tough. When he's not, it derails everything.

[Eze]

For Saturday night's game:


Stoudemire said in locker room he has ankle sprain and is no guarantee for Sac.

[Sir Harry]

a one legged Amare could still get 10 uncontested breakaways...

[Eze]

Good news everybody. JJ Hickson is all set.


I grind like a skater do...

*facepalm*

[Sir Harry]

correction

I shoota free throw like a skater do

[bloatedmaniac]

I agree....a good coach puts an end to this crap after 5 minutes

A good coach doesn't coach a team like the Kings...

[bloatedmaniac]

Using the young team excuse is ridiculous. Look at what Philly did last year. C'mon this team plays with no direction, out of control at times, and lacks discipline to be playoff caliber. Westphal has to take responsibility.theres no reason we should not at least be .500 with this talent!really!


Actually its not ridiculous, and the talent on this team isn't all that good. The Kings are the youngest team in the league with 7 new players (excluding Honeycutt). They had almost no time to practice as a team due to lockout, only had 2 preseason games, and every individual player has glaring weaknesses to their game. It takes a lot of time for any team to gel and learn to play together and to come up with rotations to overcome all the weaknesses this team possesses. There are a lot of holes with the team's makeup, there is no all-star level player, each player has glaring weaknesses, a lot of inexperienced mistakes, no true point guard, nobody you can trust on a consistant basis. Though this team might be more talented overall than last year, its not by much. Hayes isn't an upgrade over Dal. He is a better defender but gives up a lot of size and is worse offensively. Outlaw adds nothing. Hickson isn't good. Salmons is better than Cisco but not by much. Fredette is a good shooter, but his inexperience shows everytime he waits too long and gets trapped or the ball slapped away. Tyreke is healthy but his game is the same as it was as a rookie...only the league knows him far better than before. He still can't shoot and tries to drive everytime. This isn't a .500 team, maybe not for another year or two.

[DCKingsFan]

Would it have been a close game if they had made their free throws?

[Sir Harry]

A good coach doesn't coach a team like the Kings...
To say a great Coach doesn't run a team like the Kings would be more accurate
a "good" Coach isn't too much to ask

[Sir Harry]

Would it have been a close game if they had made their free throws?

they still would have lost
make free throws and get back on defense and they win

[nuraman00]

I also think Chicago's offense is more diverse than last year. Last year, all they did was isolate Rose.

This year, they're also running high-low sets (in the game at the L.A. Lakers), and they're running pick and pops. They barely used a pick and roll or pick and pop last year, I could go almost an entire game without seeing it.

So Rose isn't looking to score as often. He's only averaging 14.7 FGA, compared to 19.7 last year.

They isolated Rose more in the second half.

There were also those three straight possessions earlier in the game, when Fredette was on Rose, and Rose passed. If this was last year, he would have looked to score on Fredette right away. Later in the game, when Fredette was on Rose, then Rose drove by him and that didn't end well for Fredette.

It's possible the Kings weren't ready for Chicago being a little different.

I also think the Kings are a little different from last year. They're not working through Cousins as much, and they're attacking from the wings more. Why wasn't Chicago bothered by the Kings differences? Because they didn't really help the Kings as much.

[nuraman00]

To say a great Coach doesn't run a team like the Kings would be more accurate
a "good" Coach isn't too much to ask

Agree. Good coaches do coach bad teams like the Kings. Flip Saunders went to the Wizards. Stan Van Gundy went to the Magic when they were a .488 team.

Don Nelson took over the Warriors when they were a lottery taem.

They just run better offensive systems.

[nuraman00]

Would it have been a close game if they had made their free throws?

I just don't think it's going to be realistic to expect them make FTs. The best FT shooting teams have players who get to the foul line and shoot 85%. At least two such players.

Marcus Thornton is probably the best foul shooter among someone who can get to the foul line, and he doesn't get to the line enough to qualify.

Evans isn't going to be a good foul shooter unless he reworks his jumper into a great one, and that's not going to happen this season.

The players that get to the line the most, Evans, Cousins, and Hickson, aren't good foul shooters nor are they supposed to be.

Players rarely become a lot better at foul shooting in their careers, or it doesn't change much after their 3rd or 4th year.

Duncan had that one year where he shot 79.9% in 2002, and then went back to being a 60s shooter for the rest of his career.

Salmons and Thornton are probably the best foul shooters, but Salmons role isn't the same as a few years ago (nor should it be on a team with more weapons).

If free throw shooting were that easy to fix, we would have seen more teams or more players make huge strides. The Spurs even hired a shooting coach a few years ago, yet it didn't make much an impact. Except to make Tony Parker have a respectable corner 3-point shot.

Also, as for Salmons, when 82games.com gets their data up for this season, I want to see how much time is left when Salmons shoots the ball. I know he's not passing right now, but I also think almost all of his shots are either close shots, within 5 feet, or with less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I think he would be passing more if he got the ball earlier on the shot clock and could alter the defense more. I think by the time he's getting the ball, he's usually open in a catch-and-shoot, or the defense doesn't change much when he drives.

Not that I want him to get the ball more, but just differently when he does.

Right now, if the guards are going to continue to initiate the offense, then Evans and Salmons are still better at it than Salmons.

[Eze]

These guys, for whatever reason, love to walk the ball up the court, put somebody at the elbow and then pick up their dribble trying to pass to him. They'll eventually get it, with about 12 on the clock - he'll pass it back and it's a bit of chicken with their head cut of syndrome, just running around until they fire something shitty up.

They were running in the win versus the Lakers - not so much in the past two games.

[nuraman00]

These guys, for whatever reason, love to walk the ball up the court, put somebody at the elbow and then pick up their dribble trying to pass to him. They'll eventually get it, with about 12 on the clock - he'll pass it back and it's a bit of chicken with their head cut of syndrome, just running around until they fire something shitty up.

They were running in the win versus the Lakers - not so much in the past two games.

I think the Bulls transition defense had something to do with that.

The Lakers usually aren't good in transition defense.

I do agree it's like a chicken with their head cut off. It's not that they're trying to do this, but they aren't finding ways to create open looks.

[Eze]

The personnel just doesn't seem like a mix to do that. These guys all need the ball. And that would be fine if they cut, etc, but so many times they stand around. We saw what happened when they cut and moved last night - they got easy baskets, like Evans' cut to the basket with Hayes at the elbow. But running behind the guy at the elbow for a handoff and trying to go through 3 or 4 players on your way to the paint wont work. Sadly, Thornton, Evans and Salmons all enjoy doing that.

Not trying to compare Cousins/Hayes to Webber/Divac, but, they're both really solid passers - they should be used at the elbow in similar ways. Not only does it open up opportunities but it keeps defenders out of the paint for Evans and Thornton.

[Sir Harry]

The personnel just doesn't seem like a mix to do that. These guys all need the ball. And that would be fine if they cut, etc, but so many times they stand around. We saw what happened when they cut and moved last night - they got easy baskets, like Evans' cut to the basket with Hayes at the elbow. But running behind the guy at the elbow for a handoff and trying to go through 3 or 4 players on your way to the paint wont work. Sadly, Thornton, Evans and Salmons all enjoy doing that.

Not trying to compare Cousins/Hayes to Webber/Divac, but, they're both really solid passers - they should be used at the elbow in similar ways. Not only does it open up opportunities but it keeps defenders out of the paint for Evans and Thornton.It's been proven effective for teams such as this years Kings
but apparently not in the westphal playbook

[Eze]

Get Coachie back. lol

[EvansCousinsDUO]

Clippers just lost to the Bulls by 13. We lost by 10. I think we did great against the best defense in the NBA. A few expected early season mistakes such as bad FT% which will improve as the season continues and we will get more wins.

[bloatedmaniac]

Thats why win-loss records don't matter after the first 4 games of the season. I never thought the Kings were going to be a good team this year, and people are expecting way too much. What I want to see is the team improve and gel as the season progresses along with individual growth of the young players.